Interview with Caroline Munro

 

Interview by Stephen C Wilson © 2024
 

Caroline recorded two songs with Mark Wirtz in 1967, resulting in the single 'Tar & Cement' b/w 'This Sporting Life' - both tracks will be included on the forthcoming Mark Wirtz Anthology box set 'Dream Dream Dream' (Five CD edition) to be issued in November 2024.

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I chatted with Caroline about Mark, the single they recorded and her memories of that time as a prelude to the box set.

Caroline: I’m trying to think of the first time I met Mark, the first date I met Mark.

SW: It was 1967 when you recorded Tar and Cement and This Sporting Life

Caroline: It was, I do remember that. I remember it came out of the blue, really. I was living with my parents in Rottingdean, outside Brighton, a little Tudor village, and my Father, who was a lawyer, used to travel up to the City with a chap who was head of Decca at the time – Steve Beecher Stevens, who was my Dad’s friend. We were really good family friends.

I remember Steve (Beecher Stevens) said “I’ve got this new band” and he’d brought me the album cover, a mock-up of the album cover, and he showed me this (the Rolling Stones) and said “what do you think of them?”. My Dad said “they’re an unusual look”, and I said “I think they’re good”, then I heard the music – “Oh Carol” and “King Bee” – and I thought “Oh! Wow! I like this!”

Anyway, Steve was looking for a singer at the time, a girl, and I had just started out in my modelling career, done a little bit of stuff. Steve asked my Dad if I would like to do a record with them, he said “I’ve got this wonderful producer/writer.” Dad put it to me and I said “no!” (laughs) “I don’t want to do it Dad, no!” – but Dad suggested I just meet them and Steve assured me Mark was a lovely person – a very gentle person, very sweet, and he believed I would get on fine. So I did, I met Mark and he was fun and lovely, and I remember just being so nervous – I was very young. I had never done anything like that before – I’d sung in the Church Choir but that was all. But I sang when I met with Mark in George Street, where he was living, off Marylebone High Street. I met him in his flat there, and I sang “My Guy” by Mary Wells, because I love Motown. I remember that, and that Mark was so sweet. I said “Well, I’ve never sung before – never.”

And next thing I knew he’d got these songs. 

When it came to the recording, my Dad came along, because I was so young, but he waited outside the studio – he didn’t come in. The session was just a few hours I think. Not very long. Mark had already got the tracks ready, they had already been done. The session musicians were Cream – Eric Clapton, Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker, and also Steve Howe. You can hear Clapton on 'Sporting Life' can’t you? I do remember thinking “That is very cool guitar”. Sadly I didn’t see them during the session as the music had been recorded previously. Mark had got my key from the run through of the Mary Wells song I had sung in his flat and got everything prepared. So they got my key from that and it was all pre-recorded, whatever key that was, and I just went in to Abbey Road – and it was amazing. I can’t remember if I knew at that time that the Beatles had worked there – I must have known I guess, because of the albums and everything. 

SW: Yes, because it was the year of Sgt Pepper.

Caroline: Yes, well I know they were using that studio. I know that well. And I can remember if I look through my mind’s eye.

I live not far from Abbey Road, I can walk down to Abbey Road in about 10 minutes, I’m in Kilburn. So it’s very close down there to Abbey Road. I always wonder if I would like to go in there, to see if they have any records of it all. And there’s a person that I know, that I work with, that is Mike Read – the DJ, do you know of Mike Read?

SW: Of course I remember Mike Read, from Pop Quiz, Top Of The Pops and Saturday Superstore and suchlike 

Caroline: Yes, he’s a lovely chap – we do Talking Pictures TV live shows together, host them together. He’s always popping in and out of Abbey Road. I said to him that I’d love to go in there because I did do a little song in there and he said “Oh! next time I go in I’ll let you know and I’ll take you in.” I’d love to go in there again. I think it’s very difficult to get in there now. I’ve never been back into the studio but I had some American friends over, big Beatles fans, who went to the Abbey Road shop and I took pictures of them doing the crossing, you know – walking across. They bought lots of memorabilia, but I would never have thought of popping in, I wouldn’t dare pop in there and say “I used to record here a million years ago.” (laughs)

SW: What do you remember of the song selections for your single?

Caroline: I don’t know where “Tar and Cement” came from – whether it was a French song originally, or whether Mark wrote it. I don’t know the details, you might be able to tell me more about that?

SW: I know it was written by Paul Vance, Lee Pockriss and Adriano Celentano. And had been recorded by other artists previously including Verdelle Smith in 1966. “This Sporting Life” was an old blues song written and released by Brownie McGhee in 1946.

Caroline: Yes, I thought so, it had to be (an old blues song) didn’t it? Those lyrics. All about “This old sporting life is getting me down” (laughs). It was very funny – something about “I’ve been a gambler too” – it was very funny, and I had this funny little voice. A little kind of choir voice – squeaky little voice.

SW: I think the vocals are great on those tracks 

Caroline: It’s not too bad, Mark must have twiddled the knobs to make it sound nice (laughs). I do like singing and I still do it occasionally. But I am not a singer – my daughter’s a singer, Iona. She sings really really well. She writes her own stuff too. She’s only just starting but she’s very good. 

SW: Has she done some recording?

Caroline: She goes into a studio with a chap called Alex and he does all the music too. Her name is Iona Munro, my married name was Dugdale but Iona is going to be Iona Munro on the recommendation of the person who would like to agent or manage her. It’s kind of modern, it’s called “Skin To Skin”. It’s interesting – she doesn’t have a label yet. The person Iona went to see, a female manager, I think she wants to try and find a label for her. Alex, the producer – he’s like a one man band. He worked with a young artist called Celeste. He’s very good. Iona’s known him for years. So he does all the music, and Iona goes in and writes the lyrics, and they have a kind of collaboration. 

SW: You worked with Gary Numan of course, later on in the 80s?

Caroline: I did, yes – and again it was kind of “flukey”. Gary called my agent and asked if I would be interested. I think because I had done a few bits – there was a bit of music about the place. I went down to meet him. Again, like Mark, he was very sweet. A very nice man, very shy but super clever. I went down to Newmar Records, in Shepperton. He’d already got the tracks ready, and if I’m honest it was a bit too high for me. It was too high but he’d recorded it already, so I just went in and just did the lyrics to it. But we also did a live thing at the Shepherds Bush Empire, because his girl singer didn’t turn up, his backing singer, so he asked me if I would just come along – it was the Lulu show. He said “could you come along and do some backing vocals” and I thought “oh my gosh!” – I only had about five minutes to hear it. We all had to wear white, because he was in his “white period” at the time. He was a lovely man. Such a nice man to work with, very talented, and very very modest. As of course was Mark. Mark was a very modest man, yet such a huge talent. 

SW: Yes, I agree, and I was always amazed by how modest he was, and how he turned my interest in his work back to being an interest in me and my music. He always seemed amazed and couldn’t comprehend the level of interest I and others had in his music and work, and he could be quite self-deprecating at times. But for me, Mark was a musical genius.

Caroline: Oh Yes! He was so so ahead of his time, with the stuff he wrote and recorded, Did he always record in Abbey Road? I mean, mostly I suppose he did at that time.

SW: He wasn’t at Abbey Road for very long comparatively. A part of that was because of the “Teenage Opera” and surrounding elements. He was never really given the opportunity to finish the “Teenage Opera” project. “Grocer Jack” was a massive hit, but the following two “Teenage Opera”-related singles were not as successful commercially, so EMI effectively pulled the plug on the whole project which indirectly led to Mark leaving EMI.

Caroline: Yes! “You’re only as good as your last work!” or so they think...but it’s not true. something or someone can really gain legs and notoriety, and people like it. It’s for the public really. I mean, who are they – the executives – to say, it’s the public who should do the yay and nay.

SW: I wondered if you are aware of how sought after copies of “Tar and Cement”/”This Sporting Life” are? 

Caroline: No

SW: Well, mint condition copies have been known to sell for over £100 a time

Caroline: They don’t!? My Mum had a copy, and I thought I had it, and I don’t know if I do still have it! Really!? That is interesting, It’s funny isn’t it, I can imagine what The Beatles stuff must be worth now! And the Stones. Beatles demos and Stones demos.

SW: What type of music do you tend to listen to, and did you tend to listen to in the 60s?

Caroline: I love music of all kinds – I’m a fan of so much music, I like some jazz to a certain extent, and I love country, I’m a big country rock fan – love it, love it, love it!! One of my favourite things. I didn’t think I was keen on opera but I was listening the other night to the radio, which I do if I can’t sleep, and tuned into a sort of operatic thing and I thought actually this is rather nice. I wouldn’t have classed myself as an opera fan, and this wasn’t my favourite thing I’ve heard but certainly it opened my ears to something different. I used to go every year with my husband to the Country & Western at Wembley. A lot of Country & Western singers used to come over from the USA, not huge stars like Dolly Parton, but we had The Dixie Chicks, for instance. I love Dolly (laughs), I adore Dolly Parton – as a woman and as a performer. I mean, what songs she wrote – Oh my gosh, didn’t she just? Songs for Elvis, Whitney Houston and of course “Jolene” is a classic. What a great great track.

Have you watched on TV – sometimes they have these “Now 60s” and “Now 70s” shows? I love watching them, the music. Really takes me back to those days. 

SW: Yes, I enjoy those shows very much, and often there is some quite obscure and interesting stuff on there. I believe you did some music about 10 years ago with Gary Wilson?

Caroline: Oh Gary, yes, yes we did. And again it was his idea. We did “Everlasting Love”, I can’t remember everything we did now, but it was Gary’s baby and he had a label I think. He had a great voice, Gary Wilson. The project was called Wilson Munro. I think it was more than 10 years, must have been about 15 years ago now, maybe more. Do you know, I don’t even remember – maybe about 15 years ago. We did a few tracks together.

SW: Have you any inclination to do more music recording or performing?

Caroline: I do a show in the States – I say “show” but it’s more a convention really, called “Monster Bash”. They sometimes get people to sing a bit, and they got me to sing with a really good singer on “Blue Moon”, which was nice. Then I recorded a sort of Charity thing, the Jackie De Shannon track “When You Walk In The Room” – I like that song a lot. But no not really much, it would have to be something really nice and really meaningful.

SW: Were you aware of any of the music that Mark did later on in his career, and would you have liked to work with him again had the opportunity arisen?

Caroline: I expect I would have liked to work with him again, the only thing was that I remember the record was starting to get played a bit, on the radio, and l had just started my modelling career so I was quite busy at the time, and I did a film with David Bailey, a black and white film (“G.G. Passion”), so I wasn’t fully aware of how it was doing, but like I say, apparently it was getting played, and Steve (Beecher Stevens) had received a call from David Frost, who had a TV show, and Steve again asked my Dad if I would like to go on and sing “Tar and Cement”, and again I said no (laughs). I said “I really don’t want to do it Dad!” so Dad said “She really doesn’t want to do it” but I was glad it was getting played. And apparently the wonderful Francoise Hardy, the French singer, went on to have a massive hit with it in France after my version. She picked the record up and liked it, so did a version which was a hit in France, although not over here. 

I don’t know why but I just didn’t want to do that show, I was very shy, even though I had started modelling, I was still quite shy.

SW: Both of the tracks you released do get a lot of love on music forums and from fans of 60s music particularly.

Caroline: Really? Oh, that is really nice to hear – that is really sweet. Lovely to hear, gosh!

SW: I was very keen, when I started to work on compiling the track list for the Cherry Red Records Box Set of Mark’s work, to include both of your tracks, particularly “Tar and Cement”, as it hasn’t been issued on an official CD before, while “This Sporting Life” has been on previous compilations. But I was very keen to include both tracks.

Caroline: (laughs) And what did Cherry Red say? Did they say “oh no we don’t want them?” (laughs).

SW: No, not at all – they are all for them. And as I say, “This Sporting Life” has been included in at least one of their previous compilations. With “Tar and Cement”, I am not currently certain if it’s possible to source the actual original master recordings as such. A lot of the original master tapes for some of Mark’s music are not traceable. 

Caroline: Oh, that’s interesting, I wonder what happened to the masters. Would they have stayed at Abbey Road? You mean those big reels?

SW: I know Abbey Road don’t have them – Abbey Road in fact put me in touch with Warner’s, Warner’s having taken control of the ownership of the EMI material, including “Tar and Cement” and “This Sporting Life”. I am not sure currently what they do or don’t have by way of the actual original master tapes and/or multitracks etc. It’s not really my area – and I know Cherry Red are, or will be, looking into that by way of the box set. I think certainly with some of the tapes, the location is not known.

Caroline: Someone must have them, mustn’t they? I’m sure they could be found. Unless they’ve been destroyed or wiped over. Maybe Abbey Road did destroy a lot of stuff. Or would they? Certainly not Beatles I imagine. I’m sure they wouldn’t destroy those.

SW: They kept 99% of The Beatles stuff and I believe they transferred pretty much everything digitally at very high definition some time ago. Hence all the reissues and remixes and expanded editions with the outtakes and so on.

Caroline: Of course!

SW: With the Mark Wirtz stuff, I think it’s simply a case of where there is material missing, it’s at least partly because no-one with the access has ever actively looked for them,but what you can do where there are no masters available is to take a high quality transfer from an original vinyl 7” or LP and then just kind of restore it and clean it up. 

Caroline: Yes! You could now with the modern techniques. 

SW: Obviously it’s always nicer if you can find and source an original first generation master tape but sadly it’s not always possible.

Caroline: An original original (laughs). It’s all very interesting.

SW: So, out of interest when did you last listen to the two tracks that you recorded with Mark?

Caroline: I haven’t heard one for ages. One of my daughters said you can hear one of them on YouTube?

SW: Yes, they are both on YouTube, actually. 

Caroline: So I suppose I could hear them that way? Like I said, I know my Mum had a copy. I didn’t get a copy. But my Mum did, and she did give it to me but I don’t know what happened to it. We moved and it got lost in the shuffle.

SW: I can certainly ensure you receive a copy of the box set.

Caroline: That would be interesting. And some of Mark’s other work I would love to have, particularly “Grocer Jack” and “Teenage Opera” stuff, all the classics. Those are the ones I remember. I remember all those. Oh, that would be lovely.

SW: And a couple of tracks by Sam Jones, did you know Sam Jones?

Caroline: Oh yes. I know, of course – the singer. Of course I do. Now, what did she do with Mark that I would know?

SW: They did a fair few tracks – singles and an album, with songs such as “Today Without You” and “Go Ahead” and stuff like that. There’s some material by a singer called Peanut that Mark produced and arranged, she did a Brian Wilson song and some other bits and pieces.

Caroline: That’ll be interesting. I love Brian Wilson.

SW: And did you know Keith West?

Caroline: No I didn’t ever meet him sadly. Is he still around?

SW: Yes, in fact back in 2017 – and I don’t know if you knew this – there was a theatrical production of “Teenage Opera” in the UK.

Caroline: No, I didn’t know that.

SW: Yes, and Amanda and Mark invited Abi and myself to the read through at the Lyceum Theatre in London, where they introduced us to Keith West, who was also there.

Caroline: Oh, how lovely. That would have been lovely to have seen. So is Keith still making music?

SW: I believe he still plays occasional gigs and stuff, but I am not sure he has recorded anything much in recent years. There was an autobiography or Biography a while ago. And last year Steve Howe remixed the Tomorrow album and I think Keith was involved in that one way or another, but I don’t know for sure. 

Caroline: Of course Steve Howe was on my tracks with Cream. It was fabulous, I loved their music – the music on those two tracks sounded brilliant. So very tight and just brilliant. I remember driving down – to do a photo shoot or something – driving down Pall Mall, We were late getting to the photo shoot, by Buckingham Palace, with Ginger Baker going about 90mph in his Jag. So I remember that, I thought wow, that’s quite cool. Ginger was a very nice person. Great fun, nice chap. So I did meet him then, but they weren’t there when I did my parts on the recording session. But that backing track is just fabulous.

SW: As is the vocal.

Caroline: Oh thank you. Mark was very patient with me, I must say. We weren’t there that long, it really didn’t seem to take that long. It just somehow didn’t, it was a very pretty June time for me. 

SW: Do you remember if you did it in one take, or did you do several and comp between them?

Caroline: We did a few takes and then Mark patched it together.

I did the takes then just left and my Dad took me home. I can’t remember for definite, I mean it’s so...like 100 years ago (laughs) – I think probably four or five runs, but also we had a few sing throughs before recording as well (laughs). Once I got the feel of the music, we just did it. And “Sporting Life” was harder – a lot of really tricky notes, and there’s one note that really sticks out to me, that is wrong. It was just a really unusual note and if I heard it now I would know it and notice it – it sticks out because it’s wrong (laughs). It doesn’t hit the key right. So I was quite critical of that, but it was done by then, and it was the B side so...

SW: That’s the kind of thing that really only the artist will ever notice.

Caroline: Really? Do you think?

SW: Yes – it happens all the time, even with the production side of things like clicks and sounds on backing tracks. I get very hung up on clicks. I’ll listen back to something and think “oh my God there’s a click there”, or a hum or a buzz or whatever – of course 99% of the time no-one else can hear it – but I still notice it.

Caroline: Yes, I’m sure – So it’s never going to sound right to the person singing it or playing it if you feel it isn’t right no matter what anybody says because you always notice it. 

SW: So can you tell me more about when you met Mark again in the 1990s?

Caroline: It was in Gold Hawk Road in Shepherds Bush, where we met him – he was living nearby. It was his idea – he got in touch with my agent, Jayne, and Jayne said to me “Oh, Mark Wirtz contacted me and would like to meet up with you” and I said “Mark Wirtz is here?” and Jayne said he was and had asked if I would meet. I can’t actually remember all the details but it was just really lovely to see him again and find out what he was doing. We had a really nice lunch together. I’m trying to remember what we discussed...I’ll have to ask Jayne if she remembers. I remember he looked really well. I seem to remember he had a bit of a pony tail and was wearing a leather jacket. Other than that he looked pretty much the same. I don’t think he mentioned that he’d been living in the States – I will have to ask Jayne. 

SW: There’s a photo of Mark at Abbey Road and another of him with Keith West at Abbey Road from about 1999. He was there in relation to the reissuing of the Tomorrow album on CD on RPM.

Caroline: Maybe that was the same time. I expect it most probably was around the same time. I wonder why he particularly wanted to get in touch.

SW: I do know, I have been told, that Mark was particularly proud of the tracks that he recorded with you. So maybe while he was in the UK he thought he would really like to catch up.

Caroline: Oh that’s so sweet. Maybe – because I really was so young when we did those songs, and not a singer. And he was very very sweet with me I must say. It seemed to be so easy and I can’t explain why. Maybe because the music was so very good, the tracks were so good. I struggled a bit with Sporting Life because I did think “I wonder if I should be saying these things” – all those bits about “I was a gambler too” and “This sporting life is getting me down” – but anyway, I did it. I hadn’t long left the convent school, so it was quite an eye opener for me at the time but, oh wow, that’s so lovely that he felt that.

SW: Do you remember someone called Sheelagh Regan?

Caroline: That name, now – how does that name ring a bell? It can’t be from the 60s surely.

SW: Sheelagh was Mark’s PA at around the same time you recorded the tracks.

Caroline: So she was there – might have even been at the session. I remember that name so well. Actually she might have been there when I met Mark in George Street, at Mark’s flat. I think, maybe Heron Court? – it’s funny because I think I don’t remember much then I find I do remember, and when your saying things I remember even more. Triggers things in the brain and I’m thinking “oh gosh yes, I remember that”.

(Sheelagh has recently confirmed she was indeed at the sing through and recording session)

SW: Did you know of much of Mark’s music in the 70s and onward, occasionally under pseudonyms of one type or another?

Caroline: No – did he sing?

SW: Yes, a lot.

Caroline: Oh, he did sing – I didn’t know that.

SW: He was the singer on the “Teenage Opera”-related track “He’s Our Dear Old Weatherman”.

Caroline: Oh, he sang that – okay, that’s interesting. You know, they were so talented back in the day, and without all the tricks that they have now. Lots of tricks in the studio which can be wonderful and can certainly enhance it, but it was more basic, more real. It’s like special effects on films – all the CGI while all the old effects, they actually had to do them on camera, you know back in the day. It was all done on camera in front of you whereas now they have CGI, which can be good in parts but takes away a little bit of the love. 

SW: Funnily enough I was reading a few days back that with the new Alien film they have gone back to non-CGI effects.

Caroline: Oh wow, have they – that’s brilliant. It’s like Ray Harryhausen films, they were all stop motion. 

SW: There was a TV show you did a year before you worked with Mark, from 1966 

Caroline: “Whole Scene Going” – with The Who on, they were on live, and I looked so grumpy. It was 1966 and I was supposedly “The Face Of 1966” – something to do with David Bailey, and they’d made me up – when I won the competition I didn’t really wear make-up or anything, and they put all this awful make-up and eyelashes on me and I looked so grumpy. It’s very funny. They did my hair all up weird (laughs). I look very bad tempered and very nervous, because I had no idea what it was all about (laughs). 

SW: It must have been amazing seeing The Who though at that time?

Caroline: It was. And of course Keith Moon was there, so the full complement.

I remember also Steve (Beeches Stevens) sent me an invitation to see Pink Floyd as well, and it was the most bizarre thing I had ever seen. They were doing all sorts of psychedelic things all over the ceiling. 

My cogs, my brain is whizzing now – 60s 60s!! It is lovely reminiscing – I won’t be able to sleep tonight with all the memories.

I remember in Manchester Square I did a photo shoot, I had a white fluffy jacket, and a denim mini skirt, and boots, and I did that at the top of the EMI building. I just remembered that. Gosh, that’s scary. I think I had my hair in plaits – white fluffy jacket and I think I looked really bad tempered. I think I have only ever seen it once. It’s in black and white.

SW: I wondered, did you know Mark did stand-up comedy in his later years?

Caroline: No!! I didn’t know that at all. He did his music at the same time?

SW: Yes, although of course he did have a hiatus for around two decades to look after his family. He had moved to the US in the early 70s and worked in Hollywood, working with people like Dean Martin and Helen Reddy among other, and of course his solo material. He wrote a few books and also did a lot of Art.

Caroline: That’s amazing, I really didn’t know that. Did he write about his music career?

SW: There was a book called “Sisyphus Rocks” which is I believe influenced by elements of his music career.

Caroline: Oh that would be interesting to read. He did come back to the music didn’t he?

SW: What happened was that in the late 90s there was a kind of resurgence of interest in Mark’s music and music associated with Mark, that kind of indirectly led to Mark beginning to do more music and he did release new music during the 2000s as a result of that. But there was the reissue of the Tomorrow album and the issuing of a “Teenage Opera”-related album on CD.

Caroline: Yes, of course – Oh! “Grocer Jack”, I mean – that was iconic, or indeed is iconic. You know whenever I mention Mark Wirtz, which, you know I do mention him a lot when I do interviews with people for instance, Mark’s name tends to come up, then if they say “Oh, I don’t really know..” I mention “Grocer Jack” then they say “Oh well!! ‘Grocer Jack’!!” and go berserk. It was an extraordinary piece of work – and the “Teenage Opera”! Extraordinary, with the children’s voices and so ahead of its time. When you think about it – so ahead of its time. 

SW: And quite complex too. We have work tapes of it from acetate – works in progress for “Grocer Jack”, “Sam” and “He’s Our Dear Old Weatherman”, from the embryonic stages through to fruition. Some of that will be on the box set.

Caroline: Oh, that would be fascinating. And all his writing and everything?

SW: We have Mark’s handwritten lyrics for “Grocer Jack”. There will be a facsimile of these in the box set.

Caroline: You mean original? Oh my gosh, that is so precious. 

I hadn’t heard of Mark’s passing you know? Nobody told me or informed me. And I didn’t see it in any press. Because in my newsletter – a sort of fan club thingy – I do obituaries. Did you say it was two years ago?

SW: It was in 2020, during the worst period of the pandemic. It was so very sad, particularly for Amanda (Wirtz – Mark’s widow).

Caroline: Does Amanda ever come over to the UK? 

SW: Not so much – she lives in Australia now. 

Caroline: I was going to say if it was in the States I am over there a few times a year so maybe I could have met up with her. It would have been really nice to have met her really.

Wow! All these memories – it’s been so lovely reminiscing, thank you.

 

SW: Thank you.

END